tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25556312.post288926117372239711..comments2024-03-01T03:16:14.116+00:00Comments on Another Green World: AV referendum will stop proportional representation for a generationDerek Wallhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05462511891409913195noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25556312.post-78365721460881054532011-04-18T10:51:01.589+00:002011-04-18T10:51:01.589+00:00I agree with Derek. Changing to AV is tinkering a...I agree with Derek. Changing to AV is tinkering at the edges of an electoral system that is not fit for purpose, in that it does not lead to Parliaments that reflect the way people vote; it's about achieving the political establishment's aim of achieving "strong" government, which is about the executive doing more or less what it likes. And since the number of seats in Serenus Zeitblomnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25556312.post-24756623730260747552010-09-12T16:17:05.716+00:002010-09-12T16:17:05.716+00:00im personally really pleased the Greens have voted...im personally really pleased the Greens have voted to support the AV vote, shows a degree of political pragmatism that has not always been there before <br /><br />http://stevehynd.wordpress.com/2010/09/12/the-green-party-shows-polictcal-maturity-as-well-as-political-idealism/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25556312.post-82661327107001675362010-08-05T15:50:34.295+00:002010-08-05T15:50:34.295+00:00The final paragraph of the position of Fair Vote C...The final paragraph of the position of Fair Vote Canada (Canada's counterpart to the ERS) is worth quoting:<br /><br />"Is switching from our current voting system to AV for parliamentary elections likely to be a step toward fair voting in the foreseeable future?<br /><br />No. Societies rarely change their voting systems for parliamentary, legislature or council elections. When those Wilf Dayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05546880754492040363noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25556312.post-43642163745351161492010-08-05T15:37:58.216+00:002010-08-05T15:37:58.216+00:00What is the evidence that AV is 'less proporti...What is the evidence that AV is 'less proportional than what we have at the moment?' The Jenkins’ Commission report. This is not a new debate. Has everyone forgotten? “In some circumstances, and those the ones which certainly prevailed at the last election and may well do so for at least the next one, it is even less proportional that FPTP . . . So far from doing much to relieve Wilf Dayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05546880754492040363noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25556312.post-33381920128248634532010-08-05T15:37:13.026+00:002010-08-05T15:37:13.026+00:00Derek is correct, as electoral reformers in Canada...Derek is correct, as electoral reformers in Canada have concluded. We oppose AV:<br /><br />http://www.fairvote.ca/sites/fairvote.ca/files/AV-backgrounder-august2009_1.pdf?q=files/AV-backgrounder-august2009_1.pdf<br /><br />Will AV eliminate most tactical voting? No, it institutionalizes it. In Australian House elections the choices have shrunk to two: Labour or The Coalition. Do you want that Wilf Dayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05546880754492040363noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25556312.post-11281179623994799452010-08-05T15:35:50.334+00:002010-08-05T15:35:50.334+00:00Derek is correct, as electoral reformers in Canada...Derek is correct, as electoral reformers in Canada have concluded. We oppose AV:<br /><br />http://www.fairvote.ca/sites/fairvote.ca/files/AV-backgrounder-august2009_1.pdf?q=files/AV-backgrounder-august2009_1.pdf<br /><br />Will AV eliminate most tactical voting? No, it institutionalizes it. In Australian House elections the choices have shrunk to two: Labour or The Coalition. Do you want that Wilf Dayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05546880754492040363noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25556312.post-75360822458280116032010-08-01T15:01:42.187+00:002010-08-01T15:01:42.187+00:00Take Back Parliament seems to be dominated with Li...Take Back Parliament seems to be dominated with Lib Dem activists, and they aren't very forthcoming about their affiliation. <br /><br />Bob Steel states people should say yes to AV whilst also stating it<i> is only the first step.</i> - but that's not what groups like Take Back Parliament are claiming at all. Take Back Parliament and others have a lot of influence, but they have chosen Proportional or Nothingnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25556312.post-46877135680026790252010-07-26T17:54:23.769+00:002010-07-26T17:54:23.769+00:00Derek although I think you are often correct I thi...Derek although I think you are often correct I think you've got it wrong on this one, largely for the reasons Sunny has stated above. AV is a very unsatisfactory system but that's the point we should be making while we try to build momentum for proper proportionality. I would like to see Greens getting fully involved with Take Back Parliament http://www.takebackparliament.com/ and Bob Steelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07585264737373618775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25556312.post-89846539717135632672010-07-10T21:23:49.898+00:002010-07-10T21:23:49.898+00:00I'm a yank, and I think we need to do what we ...I'm a yank, and I think we need to do what we can to evolve our democracies from where-ever they are at... and strategically support alternatives to FPP and develop habits that'll help bring about other election reforms.<br /><br />I myself have advocated for Strategic Election Reform geared for US state legislative elections.<br /><br />http://politeaparty.blogspot.com/2010/07/DLWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17709279441985086959noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25556312.post-32467265320888139382010-07-06T10:43:22.553+00:002010-07-06T10:43:22.553+00:00Jim; what you say here is false. The BBC 'anal...Jim; what you say here is false. The BBC 'analyses' are useless: because AV CHANGES VOTING BEHAVIOUR. The proof is in Australia.<br />In other words: The laughable nonsense in the media at present from YouGov, the BBC and others about how the election just gone by would have been different under AV ignores the most important feature of AV, visible clearly in the Australian system: that AVRuperthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04334135270533978426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25556312.post-24781007103432933552010-07-05T00:37:17.367+00:002010-07-05T00:37:17.367+00:00Anonymous is clearly a Tory.
Jim I agree we shoul...Anonymous is clearly a Tory.<br /><br />Jim I agree we should push for as good an option of AV as possible on the ballot paper but I'm yet to hear a reason why any form of AV would be worse than FPTP. If AV entrenches three party politics then it also boosts the Lib Dems which makes a further referendum on PR more likely not less.<br /><br />Also I agree with Sunny that we need to build a Jonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25556312.post-75522201287273396362010-07-03T15:48:51.909+00:002010-07-03T15:48:51.909+00:00AV is a better option than FPTP! In Canada PR is a...AV is a better option than FPTP! In Canada PR is a difficult sell to the majority of Canadians. Maybe one day the Canadian Senate may be elected via PR! Right now the PM of the day stacks the Senate with his bagmen and cronies!Ken S from Ramarahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16983894655094943569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25556312.post-2244274288608651582010-07-03T13:17:03.555+00:002010-07-03T13:17:03.555+00:00you lose my vote if you cop out with AV
anyone el...you lose my vote if you cop out with AV<br /><br />anyone else wish to send the Green great and the good a message?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25556312.post-55343444927022602512010-07-03T01:13:36.472+00:002010-07-03T01:13:36.472+00:00If we stick to our guns and support PR as we have ...<i>If we stick to our guns and support PR as we have said we will in our manifestos we will gain all those disaffected if the no vote wins. </i><br /><br />I'm sorry but this is just not true.<br /><br />All the polls show that people do not want to break the constituency link. And neither is there serious appetite for coalitions in the way that Europe has. This is why a form of AV plus Sunny Hundalhttp://liberalconspiracy.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25556312.post-27664160674336924002010-07-02T22:07:14.779+00:002010-07-02T22:07:14.779+00:00I'm with Jo and Derek.
Rupert, the BBC has be...I'm with Jo and Derek.<br /><br />Rupert, the BBC has been monitoring general elections since the 80's to compare what would happen with AV and to even suggest AV has any effect to make the system more proportional is a gross distortion of the truth and if you go to the public with that line you'll be lying to them.<br /><br />We don't know what type of AV is going to be Jim Jeppshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17410387006098326671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25556312.post-5346343408606509982010-07-02T19:03:08.948+00:002010-07-02T19:03:08.948+00:00I think Derek is very brave to say this.
If we st...I think Derek is very brave to say this.<br /><br />If we stick to our guns and support PR as we have said we will in our manifestos we will gain all those disaffected if the no vote wins. <br /><br />This will obviously backfire if AV is voted for. I am very sceptical and feel it won't win - the Tories and lots of Labour people don't support it and we are in the minority that do.<br /><Johttp://weekisalongtime.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25556312.post-4449462832064868552010-07-02T17:54:22.099+00:002010-07-02T17:54:22.099+00:00you need 50%b to win!
While you may be able to do...you need 50%b to win!<br /><br />While you may be able to do that in Norwich South I am sceptical we can do it elsewhere.<br /><br />And if we could get 50% I don't think it would be fair on minorities.<br /><br />You seem very keen on it so we may have to agree to differ....and yes if its for a president or a Mayor its better<br /><br />Nonetheless damned if we do and damned if we don't Derek Wallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05462511891409913195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25556312.post-87047955780696174982010-07-02T17:40:21.971+00:002010-07-02T17:40:21.971+00:00Derek - what is your evidence that AV is 'less...Derek - what is your evidence that AV is 'less proportional than what we have at the moment'? It is true that in certain peculiar electoral arithmetics, AV _can_ generate less proportional results than FPTP. But under most conceivable electoral circumstances, AV results in more proportional results and far fewer wasted votes.<br />If you have evidence to the contrary, please share it withRuperthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04334135270533978426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25556312.post-70937472133739626632010-07-02T13:08:02.288+00:002010-07-02T13:08:02.288+00:00It seems less proportional than what we have at th...It seems less proportional than what we have at the moment, damned if we do, damned if we don't.Derek Wallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05462511891409913195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25556312.post-30261917505365643612010-07-02T13:00:50.476+00:002010-07-02T13:00:50.476+00:00Derek this doesn't make any sense because PR i...Derek this doesn't make any sense because PR is not on the agenda.<br /><br />Other than Greens and Libdems - no one is calling for it and it won't be on the agenda.<br /><br />If you kill AV reform now you kill even the smallest move towards PR for decades.<br /><br />You can't say <i>I want something completely different so I won't support anything else</i> - because it kills Sunny Hundalhttp://liberalconspiracy.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25556312.post-9170072594329350832010-07-02T12:27:28.507+00:002010-07-02T12:27:28.507+00:00You're absolutely right about proportional rep...You're absolutely right about proportional representation, but AV is clearly better than first-past-the-post - ask any Australian Green, where they haven't won at a federal level with it, but with AV can build their vote (now in double digits), use that bigger vote to pick up seats in offices elected by PR like the federal senate and be sought after for "second choice preferences&Boydnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25556312.post-57674953195520010162010-07-02T10:31:37.808+00:002010-07-02T10:31:37.808+00:00AV isn't proportional and won't give us th...AV isn't proportional and won't give us the results we need, but is certainly better than FPTP and is a step in the right direction. It's not much but it might have to be enough.jcrooneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10046458121721505594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25556312.post-15209209707791014192010-07-02T09:21:52.016+00:002010-07-02T09:21:52.016+00:00We need to continue to make clear that only PR is ...We need to continue to make clear that only PR is full, real electoral reform, yes.<br />BUT: there is going to be an AV referendum. You need to decide which side you are on, in it.<br />It is crystal clear that defeat for AV will be perceived as defeat for electoral reform and thus as a vote for the status quo; whereas success for AV will (as you agree, Derek) eliminate the wasted vote argument Ruperthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04334135270533978426noreply@blogger.com