tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25556312.post5647073830337635568..comments2024-03-01T03:16:14.116+00:00Comments on Another Green World: Heathrow demo report backDerek Wallhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05462511891409913195noreply@blogger.comBlogger58125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25556312.post-29193586341809588222009-03-05T09:35:00.000+00:002009-03-05T09:35:00.000+00:00Sorry, count me out. More ad hominems/'assumptions...Sorry, count me out. More ad hominems/'assumptions'/misunderstandings that either disingenous or show your lack of willingness to engage with points of view that you don't agree with make this a completely pointless exchange, I've asked questions and shown open-ness to beign convinced, you've avoided them and put up straw-men. I don't in anyway favour the rich, what a strange point to take. You'dGreen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00213685949038895130noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25556312.post-54363900276562379482009-03-04T21:45:00.000+00:002009-03-04T21:45:00.000+00:00Green GordonAd Hominem! Not so sure who is guilty ...Green Gordon<BR/><BR/>Ad Hominem! Not so sure who is guilty of that.<BR/><BR/>Neither was I interested about your 'academic qualifications', but was mealy making a far more substantial point about the Risk Society in response to your inference that the reason you used the word 'precautionary' was because you had a 'scientific background'. Lots of scientist express fear/worry about societies Adlai Grahamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14117123939483482102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25556312.post-14757789344601113242009-03-04T21:41:00.000+00:002009-03-04T21:41:00.000+00:00"Increasingly, environmentalism is less about mana..."Increasingly, environmentalism is less about managing nature than pursuing a moral crusade to manage, and alter, human behaviour."Adlai Grahamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14117123939483482102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25556312.post-13912571382462730032009-03-04T21:31:00.000+00:002009-03-04T21:31:00.000+00:00This comment has been removed by the author.Adlai Grahamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14117123939483482102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25556312.post-37823876516394914202009-03-03T12:36:00.000+00:002009-03-03T12:36:00.000+00:00Thanks SarahAviation, for me, is the single most d...Thanks Sarah<BR/><BR/>Aviation, for me, is the single most difficult issue where tackling climate change is concerned. I'm not the only one. It is one of the issues which has made it difficult for NGOs to agree campaigning asks - the Aid agencies rely on lots of flights. <BR/><BR/>The reason it is such a problem is because it has brought so many benefits to so many people, and because (unlike Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05362241330971772962noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25556312.post-66108811816488347022009-03-03T10:09:00.000+00:002009-03-03T10:09:00.000+00:00Adlai G, do you need to start every reply with an ...Adlai G, do you need to start every reply with an ad hominem, it's not really necessary if your arguments are strong enough. Do you think pointing out one example of risky science shows a trend that all science should involve risk or a non-risky endeavour is not worth undertaking? Do you think the risk to one scientist as a result of their experiments is analogous to the risk to millions of Green Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00213685949038895130noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25556312.post-86838194051338991492009-03-02T15:23:00.000+00:002009-03-02T15:23:00.000+00:00Hallo again, As for Modern Movement, you can see o...Hallo again, <BR/><BR/>As for Modern Movement, you can see our statement - calling for cheaper, better, faster transport on our website - www.modernmovement.org.uk. <BR/><BR/>On the idea of climate change, though, there seems a lot more going on than at first blush. The climate has always been changing, but 'climate change' as a phenomenon is quite a recent. I think there's a variety of reasons Sarah Boyeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05229103849182916689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25556312.post-11225525615713653602009-03-02T09:55:00.000+00:002009-03-02T09:55:00.000+00:00Matt – again I’m not an MMer – but I know we can a...Matt – again I’m not an MMer – but I know we can agree on one thing: Bono isn’t really interested in inequality. Perhaps I’d put it much more strongly. <BR/><BR/>What we might not agree about is how ‘extra’ heat will turn into human problems. It is one thing to say that this heating will change weather systems. It is another to say that it is problematic. It is another again to say that it will Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25556312.post-65911605207710684192009-03-02T09:54:00.000+00:002009-03-02T09:54:00.000+00:00Green Gordon It sounds like you have a strange so...Green Gordon<BR/> <BR/> It sounds like you have a strange sort of 'scientific background' to me! <BR/> <BR/> One only has to think of the life and work of the scientist Marie Curie, and her subequent death from the radiation she worked with, to know that the scientific enterprise is far from a risk free activity; indeed, the phrase (a risk free activity) is not worthy of real scientific Adlai Grahamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14117123939483482102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25556312.post-48669880384733033262009-03-02T08:35:00.000+00:002009-03-02T08:35:00.000+00:00"An entreaty to nature is a retreat from reason. I...<B>"An entreaty to nature is a <I>retreat from reason</I>. It is a <I>foreclosing of a political arguement</I>"</B> (emphasis added)Adlai Grahamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14117123939483482102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25556312.post-48051126953775865712009-03-02T06:20:00.000+00:002009-03-02T06:20:00.000+00:00Green GordonYou often find that the first generati...Green Gordon<BR/><BR/>You often find that the first generation immigrants can be amongst the more fervent in their support for restrictions on immigration. It doesn't follow that just because you may have once been an immigrant (or that your family was descendent from), that you now support open boarders and unlimited access and freedom. But all of this is a long way (though no less an important Adlai Grahamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14117123939483482102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25556312.post-31098275836223725662009-03-01T12:51:00.000+00:002009-03-01T12:51:00.000+00:00What on earth are you talking about? I'm not a fat...What on earth are you talking about? I'm not a fatalist or someone who problematises (is that a word?) humanity. But I am precautionary, sorry, I have a scientific background, not a super-humanist philosophical one. Humanity may have infitinite potential but possibly not in the time scale required. Please give more concrete examples and fewer optimistic adjectives with regards to how best to dealGreen Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00213685949038895130noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25556312.post-45694548372392597632009-03-01T09:23:00.000+00:002009-03-01T09:23:00.000+00:00Green GordonDoes not your fatalism and problematiz...Green Gordon<BR/><BR/>Does not your fatalism and problematizing of humanity know no bounds. I fear not for you then, the extention of the brotherhood of man. Or the courteousness of the milk of human kindness and sharing your wealth out with others. Though that shouldn't every in any way preclude us all getting together and demanding more eauality for all. It's curious to see that the immigrants Adlai Grahamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14117123939483482102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25556312.post-3919660301608852312009-02-28T11:57:00.000+00:002009-02-28T11:57:00.000+00:00I guess with my questions I'm trying to get a sens...I guess with my questions I'm trying to get a sense of whether we're addressing the same problem when we talk about climate change. I imagine a conversation with Bono about global inequality. He and I might be using the same vocabulary, but essentially we'd be addressing completely different problems - he's trying to tinker with the system to produce less inhumane outcomes, whereas I think the Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05362241330971772962noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25556312.post-84254633927528972072009-02-28T10:44:00.000+00:002009-02-28T10:44:00.000+00:00And what do you do when the creation of climate-re...And what do you do when the creation of climate-refugees from newly uninhabitableleads to even more difficulties in terms of inequalities and redistribution of wealth. If you think this is a case of shovelling snow you vastly underestimate the potential calamity that could occur. Science (as a general mass) is naturally a bit wooly but it's very worrying how measurements keep seeming to outdo Green Gordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00213685949038895130noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25556312.post-5071839822397249592009-02-27T20:14:00.000+00:002009-02-27T20:14:00.000+00:00I think On Balance has it right: it's a question o...I think On Balance has it right: it's a question of inequalities. And both at home and globally you are in a better position to deal with the 'problem' of weather in a society if there is a higher level of general distribution of wealth and development and relatively less social inequalities. <BR/><BR/>Some people seem to want to stigmatize flying - just like they do with smoking, eating 'fast Adlai Grahamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14117123939483482102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25556312.post-42717175338476596782009-02-27T13:11:00.000+00:002009-02-27T13:11:00.000+00:00I can’t speak for MM either. But I wonder about th...I can’t speak for MM either. But I wonder about the question Matt has asked.<BR/><BR/>Is it right to divide the problem as one defined by workers and flyers? Workers also work at airports, and opportunities in other sectors are made possible by travel and flight. Do workers actually have interests in there being no cheap flights? What if all workers were able to afford to fly – would that resolveAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25556312.post-81463991273430685192009-02-27T08:20:00.000+00:002009-02-27T08:20:00.000+00:00Thanks Adlai for the commitment of time there, but...Thanks Adlai for the commitment of time there, but you haven't answered my questions. Can you describe how you see the problem of climate change, and can you suggest specific ideas which would allow us all lots of cheap flights without causing people harm?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05362241330971772962noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25556312.post-36579840895266079622009-02-27T00:37:00.000+00:002009-02-27T00:37:00.000+00:00I am not a spokesman for the Modern Movement. I th...I am not a spokesman for the Modern Movement. I therefore can not speak on their behalf. However, I guess I should declare an interest from the start. I am signed-up on Modern Movement’s Facebook group (for whatever that means), though I’ve flown only a handful of times in my 43 years to date (very ‘carbon neutral’ I guess my life is. I’d prefer to say I’m dirt poor and not proud of it! Call it Adlai Grahamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14117123939483482102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25556312.post-64730738900860171042009-02-26T21:03:00.000+00:002009-02-26T21:03:00.000+00:00yes please! some of these comments are longer than...yes please! some of these comments are longer than dereks posts and contain eqaully baffling language/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25556312.post-61498492310642875172009-02-26T15:02:00.000+00:002009-02-26T15:02:00.000+00:00Sarah,any chance of an answer, I will post it up a...Sarah,<BR/><BR/>any chance of an answer, I will post it up and we can debate, the social, environmental, economic, etc implications.Derek Wallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05462511891409913195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25556312.post-28942488209020844472009-02-26T14:16:00.000+00:002009-02-26T14:16:00.000+00:00Can we start again? This row hasn't told me anyth...Can we start again? This row hasn't told me anything much about the Modern Movement. Could someone from the MM summarise their position on climate change and fill out their search for better solutions with specific technologies that could allow us all lots of cheap flights without destroying the livelihoods of working people everywhere?<BR/>Ta.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05362241330971772962noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25556312.post-9946514565987664462009-02-25T14:06:00.000+00:002009-02-25T14:06:00.000+00:00It's interesting that you say that you 'spiky comm...It's interesting that you say that you 'spiky comments were based on personal experience and years of suffering the baseless insults of the Furedi-ites'.<BR/><BR/>When it was pointed out to you that the claims made about 'the LM group' were fictitious - e.g. genocide denial, supporting ethnic cleansing, and the other nonsense - you said that Monbiot speaks for himself and you couldn't be held Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25556312.post-70576363511559580802009-02-25T11:57:00.000+00:002009-02-25T11:57:00.000+00:00Baseless insults?Most of my spiky comments were ba...Baseless insults?<BR/>Most of my spiky comments were based on personal experience and years of suffering the baseless insults of the Furedi-ites.<BR/>And I was not referring to Sarah, I was referring to YOU.<BR/>Who lost their cool? This is the normal level of primate behaviour on most of the web. You have a slag off, I have a slag off, no-one learns very much. Get used to it.<BR/>It is not mygreenmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09252003539721533485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25556312.post-66957289633429516092009-02-25T10:11:00.000+00:002009-02-25T10:11:00.000+00:00You come on a green blog and take big steaming dum...<I>You come on a green blog and take big steaming dumps,</I><BR/><BR/>that's hardly fair now, is it? Sarah responded to Derek's version of the protest:<BR/><BR/><B><I>The counter demo, which consisted of about 30 people, later walked in front of our demo<BR/>carrying placards with Revolutionary Communist Party written at the base. This, of course, encouraged some of the spokespersons from Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com