11 Nov 2009

Kerry Greens to debate going Green?

Just had this, there are greens who do better and those who do worse but Ireland has been a car crash, hopefully something green will emerge like a big bright bird from the ashes...

BigTimGreen has left a new comment on your post "Skibbereen joins Letterkenny":

@ TheVirginiaAndrew

Re the Donegal Greens ... 91% of the Donegal Greens voted to leave the party. SOURCE (http://www.independent.ie/national-news/donegal-greens-decide--to-split-from-party-1930796.html) ... the article says "91pc vote in favour of leaving the party." I would consider that to be very damaging, and I'm not surprised you try to spin it positively.

The West Cork Greens are also holding breakaway talks. SOURCR (http://www.tribune.ie/news/home-news/article/2009/nov/08/greens-in-west-cork-to-hold-breakaway-talks/). ANOTHER SOURCE (http://westcorkgreens.blogspot.com/2009/11/future-of-green-politics-is-dead-and.html). You should read these two links. They give a very good idea of how some party members are feeling. Declan Waugh actually says, "I find all of my work in attempting to build a low carbon future is now in jeopardy as a consequence of my association with the Green Party." Its not just him ... there are some messages of support from other people agreeing with him.

Kerry Greens ... I can give a source for this sorry. My previous comment is based on a personal conversation and I will not break that confidence. But remember where you heard this first!

And then we have other prominent members such as Arthur Doohan etc. SOURCE (http://doohan.org/blog/). You should also read this. Strong stuff, and indicitive of what many GP members are feeling.

I'm not surprised you are trying to spin this positively. I can see how this is damaging the party.

Your spin on NAMA ... you say "On NAMA we have a) criminalised lobbying of NAMA b) agreed an 80% windfall tax on rezoning which is a major Green Party aim to combat land speculation c) agreed to replace the entire board of Directors of all the major banks and d) introduced limited risk sharing."

The reality on NAMA ... (a) The 80% windfall tax is next to irrelevant and will be for the next 20-30 years as there is at least that amount of zoned land and housing stock available (in fact some put this figure at 50 years). (b) The decision to replace the entire board of directors of all the major banks was already taken by Lenihan. Currently, the boards have not been replaced, and where people have been removed they have been replaced by insiders and bank "lifers" ... the very same people who got us into this mess in the first place. (c) The risk sharing element is what? Is it 5%? Not real risk sharing and very far from what was promised by Eamonn Ryan the week before the pfg.

As for the other areas I've listed (and "exaggerated", altho I'm sure if I had really exaggerated you would be more than happy to be more specific), they are fact. I have no problem with compromise or democratic mandate. But the Green Party have not compromised. You have totally capitulated to FF. You have achieved almost nothing while at the same time you have steadfastly supported the most corrupt and incompetent FF govt in the history of Ireland.

I realise I'm wasting my breath here. I know you will never see ther reality of how the Irish Green party have destroyed the Green agenda in Ireland for a long, long time. I know you dont accept that and will not see that. You dismiss Derek, Arthur, Patricia McKenna, Bronwen Maher, Waugh, etc, etc, etc. In a way I admire your blind faith and unquestioning belief in the Green leadership ... I liken it to a kind of religious fervor or fundamentalism ... the kind Ian Paisley had. Unfortunately its blinding you to the reality of what is really happening, and how the Greens have really sold out and betrayed every single person who voted for them. Just as they will surely betray every one who voted for the new pfg.

And if you dont believe me we'll see what happens to the Irish Green Party after the next Irish General election.

That might, just might, open your eyes to the reality ...


BigTimGreen said...

Derek, just to clarify this ... I was speaking to a member of the Kerry Greens over the last few days and leaving the Green Party was mentioned. This is openly being talked about in Kerry Green circles.

I asked the person could I use his/her name on this blog and they asked me to hold off. I will respect this and keep the name confidential.

I'll probably get a torrent of abuse and be called a liar by the Green spin machine, but this is true. The Kerry Greens are considering following the Donegal Greens and the Cork Greens out of the party.

Derek Wall said...

Dear Tim,

thanks for this, I hope something good can come out of the crisis,

and do feel free to mail me more news and I would be interested in your thoughts on biodiesal



TheVirginiaAndrew said...

To clarify, Arthur Doohan joined to Party in 2007 and ran once for us as a local election candidate in June. He is not a long standing member. In Donegal 2 out of 52 members have resigned. Those are the facts. Cork has not left the Party. I spoke personally to Declan Waugh and he told me that the papers misquoted him. You're "I'm not giving a source" line is like something from the McCarthy era! As I said, our Party founder is still a proud member. Many Party founders are still proud members. I regret the likes of Maher and O'Leary leaving, but they are a minority and not a majority. You are showing utter disrespect for the overwhelming majority of fellow Green members in Ireland.

You seem misinformed about NAMA and planning in Ireland. Rezoning has continue in places like Monaghan and Clare (where Gormley has vetoed it) and FF/FG Cllr are pushing for further rezoning in the south Dublin mountains, which again will be opposed by Gormley. It has not stopped as an issue in Ireland.
The Board of Directors have not been replaced. The State has appointed further Directors to some banks but in September the Green Party agreed for ALL current Directors to go within 2 years. 17 out of the 18 top bank officials have already been replaced, and for the first time the Governor of the Central Bank is someone other than a mandarin from the Civil Service.
The risk sharing is calculated at as a percentage of the value paid over market value as that is where the risk occurs.

From day one you have attacked the Irish Greens. Not once have you blogged about our successes, you have set it as your life goal to attack us. There is no solidarity from you, only judgment.

BigTimGreen said...

@ TheVirginiaAndrew ... there are many errors and much spin in your post.

To correct some of the errors ... the Donegal Greens ... "Of the 50 members of the party, 34 turned up to an emergency general meeting yesterday with a 91pc vote in favour of leaving the party." SOURCE http://www.independent.ie/national-news/donegal-greens-decide--to-split-from-party-1930796.html

West Cork Greens and Waugh ... the quote was from his own blog! That he himself wrote! Not sure how he could have misquoted himself ... SOURCE http://westcorkgreens.blogspot.com/2009/11/future-of-green-politics-is-dead-and.html

Kerry Greens ... I'm not giving a source because the source has asked me to hold off for a while. Keeping sources confidential is generally accepted policy in journalism ... I'm not sure why you are comparing me and many other journalists across the world to McCarthyism!!!

And those are the facts.

Re NAMA and rezoning ... rezoning is a dead issue in Ireland and everyone knows it. Housing stock and zoned land exists for about the next 50 years ... there will probably be pockets of zoning applications but these will be few and far between. Eamon Ryan said as much on Irish Radio this week. The days of large scale zoning in Ireland are gone for the foreseeable future. Thus the windfall tax is irrelevant.

Re the Banks ... the boards have not yet been fully replaced, and where resignations have taken place other bank insiders have been appointed. Why will this take 2 years? Why are the current directors leaving with huge pensions and payoffs? Why have none of them been prosecuted? Why are they being replaced by other like minded Bank lifers (AIB being a case in point)? If I was a Green I would not be shouting about achievements in banks and boards of directors ... the Green inaction and collusion with FF on this has been shocking.

Re NAMA and Green fingerprints ... none of the Green promises made before the new pfg have been delivered on. I notice you have not commented on, or disagreed, with this. Where is the Green social dividend? Where is the risk sharing touted by Eamonn Ryan (we ended up with a token 5% ... more crumbs from the FF masters table). Where is the Green levy on the banks as promised? All of this was specifically promised by Eamonn Ryan and Dan Boyle and John Gormley in interviews before the pfg ... I heard it with my own two ears. None of it has been delivered. NAMA has absolutely no meaningful Green fingerprints whatsoever, and I notice you do not deny that. NAMA is yet another example of the Greens conceding everything to FF, and delivering nothing of what was promised.

As for Derek Wall blogging about Green successes... well, I'm not sure there have been many Green successes. The few successes that have been achieved (lightbulbs, bikes, battery recycling boxes) have been totally overshadowed by the Greens unswerving devotion and support of a horrible, corrupt and incompetent FF. This includes support of the corrupt John O'Donoghue right to the bitter end. It also includes support for the abolition of cervical cancer drugs to teenage girls, and cuts to special needs education. All supported by the Greens. In fact they gave it a standing ovation when announced by Lenihan last year.

Lets face it TheVirginiaAndrew, the Greens have little to be proud of and a huge, huge, huge amount to be very ashamed of.

But I know you cant see that. You are so devoted to the Party at this stage you would put even the most ardent FF'er to shame. You have learned well from your masters. To be so cosseted from reality to think that there have been notable Green successes in Ireland must be a lovely place to be!!! Oh to be a blind, delusional, cosseted Irish Green fundamentalist who is totally divorced from everyday reality for just one day ...

Anonymous said...

Yes VirginiaAndrew, I'd like to know this too.

Why have none of the Green promises on NAMA made before the new pfg have been delivered on.

1. Where is the Green social dividend?

2. Where is the real risk sharing between the Banks and the taxpayer? (and I don't mean the token 5% you mention ... this is just an insult to the taxpayer)

3. Where is the Green levy on the banks as promised?

BigTimGreen said...

Interesting thread on the Green Windfall Tax on politics.ie at the moment ... link http://www.politics.ie/economy/118198-80-tax-rezoned-land-compelling-incentive-invest-abroad-2.html

The best comment? It has to be the one about the Green Windfall Tax being as useful as a tax on black&white tv's ...

BigTimGreen said...

VirginiaAndrew ... you've gone very quiet.

How about an answer to the NAMA question asked above?

Why have none of the Green promises on NAMA made before the new pfg have been delivered on.

1. Where is the Green social dividend?

2. Where is the real risk sharing between the Banks and the taxpayer? (and I don't mean the token 5% you mention ... this is just an insult to the taxpayer)

3. Where is the Green levy on the banks as promised?

I await your answer with baited breath! If you have any answer that is ...

soubresauts said...

TheVirginiaAndrew, you wrote:

"...As I said, our Party founder is still a proud member. Many Party founders are still proud members."

Party founder Christopher Fettes remains a member but I doubt that he is proud of what has happened to the party in the last two years or so.

I was one of the founder members myself and I'm pretty sure that fewer than ten of the (perhaps 60) founder members remain in the party. (Are there even five left?)

"You are showing utter disrespect for the overwhelming majority of fellow Green members in Ireland."

Get off your high horse and admit that the Irish Green Party has shown utter disrespect for its own principles, policies, and promises.

For example: "In Government we would immediately ban water fluoridation." -- Green Party health policy, Nov 2009